没人预测美国国防部长劳埃德·奥斯汀(Lloyd Austin)在接受美国广播公司《本周》联合主播玛莎·拉德达茨(Martha Raddatz)的独家采访时表示，阿富汗政府将在11天内崩溃。
“这是一个非常快速、快速、快节奏的进化，”奥斯汀说。“这一切都发生在大约11天的时间里。没有人预料到，你知道，政府会在11天内垮台。”
奥斯汀说，早期美国情报部门对阿富汗政府对抗塔利班能持续多久的估计差异很大塔利班过了一会儿美国撤军。
奥斯汀说:“最初的评估从一到两年到几个月不等，但评估范围很广。“随着塔利班开始取得进展，然后我们看到在一些情况下，战斗减少了，投降增加了，更多的部队正在蒸发，很难准确预测。”
“我们将尽最大努力让每个人——每个想出去的美国公民——都出去。”独占:@ MarthaRaddatz压@ SeCOdef劳埃德·奥斯汀就美国人和阿富汗盟友是否会在8月31日的最后期限前撤离发表了意见。https://t.co/w2SQReUj8Xpic.twitter.com/dIlvuByyVz
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
喀布尔机场绝望的争抢
就在一周前，塔利班夺取了阿富汗的控制权，随后，混乱立即在阿富汗爆发。
阿富汗人和外国人周一涌入喀布尔哈米德·卡尔扎伊国际机场，希望逃离，但进入机场事实证明比预期的要困难得多，塔利班控制了通往机场的道路，阻止了大多数经过的人。
视频显示，数百人与一架美国空军C-17运输机并肩运行，这架飞机在喀布尔机场的跑道上运行。https://t.co/9KvlpGgLnMpic.twitter.com/osGnDQX9rb
—美国广播公司新闻(@美国广播公司)2021年8月16日
一到那里，现场还是一片混乱。几个人绝望地想逃跑，紧紧抓住一架C-17货机的侧面。一些人在飞机起飞时死亡，从飞机上坠落，还有一些人的遗体后来发现在轮舱里。
美国和北约部队最终恢复了机场的安全，美国军事指挥官与塔利班对应方就美国人进入机场进行了会谈。
奥斯汀说:“如果你有美国护照，如果你有正确的证件，塔利班一直允许人们安全通过。
“并不是在所有情况下，”拉德达兹插话道。
“没有绝对这回事，”国防部长承认。“而且这种环境正如你所想象的，玛莎，有一些人，你知道，与塔利班有一些艰难的遭遇。”
奥斯汀说，当美国听说这些事件时，他们会与塔利班领导人接触，告诉他们美国希望塔利班让持有适当证件的人通过检查站。
但即使有了正确的凭证，一些人还是被拒之门外。美国广播公司新闻此前报道称，众议院议员被告知，塔利班殴打了试图撤离的美国公民。此外，一名北约官员周日告诉路透社，在过去的七天里，机场内外至少有20人死亡。
当被问及为什么美国军队不能延长帮助美国和阿富汗盟友到达喀布尔机场的行动时，@ SeCOdef告诉@ martharaddatz:“我们将寻找一切可能的方法来获得美国公民，第三国国民...进入机场。”https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/4hZvrsqwcw
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
自本周末以来，17，000名撤离者中的大多数是阿富汗人，他们在过去20年里与美国军队一起工作。
根据奥斯汀的说法，这些类型的疏散——成千上万的人需要在全球大流行期间安全撤离，然后进行处理和核实——可能会产生一些最具挑战性的任务。
“这是一个充满活力和挑战的环境，”奥斯汀说。“正如你所想象的，你知道，非战斗人员疏散行动是库存中最具挑战性的行动之一。”
更多:@ MarthaRaddatz:“如果他们不在，你会要求总统延长最后期限吗?”@ SeCOdef奥斯汀:“随着最后期限的临近，我们将向总统提出建议。”https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/FJWvZrsWAO
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
虽然美国军方已经派出了5800多名士兵来保护机场，但撤离行动一直被批评为太少、太晚。但奥斯汀坚称，美国军方会尽可能多地救出更多人。
奥斯汀说:“玛莎，我们将尽最大努力让每个人，每个想出去的美国公民都出去。
“你说美国公民，那些阿富汗人怎么办?”拉德达茨按下。“那些翻译呢?绝望的人怎么办?”
“当然，特殊移民签证项目中的人对我们非常非常重要，这些人将是翻译和许多支持我们大使馆和其他大使馆的工作人员，”奥斯汀回应道。
安永称疏散工作是“最大的失败之一”
爱荷华州共和党参议员乔尼·恩斯特(Joni Ernst)周日在“本周”的另一次采访中表示，美国应该向阿富汗派遣更多军队，以帮助疏散美国公民和支持美国的阿富汗人。
“我们应该尽一切可能将美国人安全送到机场进行疏散，”恩斯特告诉Raddatz。“我们是这个星球上最强大的军队，我们应该行使这些权力，以确保我们展示我们的军事力量，特别是在疏散美国人的时候。”
大老党@SenJoniErnst告诉@ MarthaRaddatz美军应该协助美国人安全到达喀布尔机场:“我们应该尽一切可能让美国人安全到达机场进行撤离。”https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/CAnESTflDk
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
战斗老兵恩斯特称，撤离喀布尔大使馆的努力是“过去几十年里我们看到的最大的失败之一。”
恩斯特说:“我们已经在政府部门工作了几个月，致力于审查程序，以确保我们与那些翻译合作，让他们安全离开这个国家。
恩斯特补充说:“如果有阿富汗人需要撤离，但没有经过充分审查，我们确实有第三国合作伙伴与我们合作开展这项工作。“我们可以将这些阿富汗人疏散到这些国家，继续那里的审查程序，我认为我们应该尽全力帮助那些在过去20年全球反恐战争中帮助过我们的人。”
当被问及美国是否会欢迎阿富汗难民时，@SenJoniErnst告诉@ martharaddatz:“我们欢迎那些经过全面审查的公司...这一点非常重要，我们必须确保它们在抵达美国本土之前经过审查。”https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/pfifdmfLcC
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
在很大程度上，美国人和美国盟友不得不自己去机场。但是当这被证明是不可能的时候，奥斯汀说他们已经用创造性的方法去拓展。美国军方已经在机场外执行了至少一次任务，驾驶三架CH-47奇努克直升机从喀布尔的一家酒店接回了169名美国公民。
“我知道你已经在机场外走了1000码，把那169个人带到了那里，”拉德达茨向奥斯汀施压。“但是在喀布尔更远的地方，人们渴望进入。我们是世界上最有能力的军队。”
“我们是，世界上最有能力的军队将确保我们的机场保持安全，我们将保卫那个机场，”奥斯汀回应道。
8月31日截止日期迅速临近
这位国防部长补充说，美国军方将尽一切可能让美国公民、第三国国民和特殊移民签证申请人前往喀布尔机场。
奥斯汀说:“最重要的是，玛莎，我真诚地希望如此，我们会想尽一切办法让美国公民、第三国公民、特殊移民签证申请人进入机场，我们会一直工作到最后一天，这样我们才能在离开之前完成这项工作。”。
拉德达茨向奥斯汀施压，询问美国是否会扩大任务，将盟友进一步疏散到喀布尔市。
“你认为我们有可能扩大任务范围，超越那1000码去帮助人们吗?”拉德达茨问道。
奥斯汀说:“我不会预测我们可能采取的任何选择，但我会告诉你，我会尽我所能让人们进入机场。
奥斯汀补充说，目标是在8月31日前完成疏散，但暗示最后期限可能会推迟。
“如果给我们更多的时间，那么我们会尽一切努力充分利用这段时间，”他说。
奥斯汀说，处理和向阿富汗盟友发放特殊移民签证申请的工作主要由国务院负责，但由许多机构分担。
“这是一个跨部门的过程，实际上是由国务院领导的，”他说。“但这都是我们的责任。”
为撤军辩护时，奥斯汀还指出了政府继承的东西
今年4月宣布撤军的美国总统拜登一直在推动美国结束多年来持续时间最长的战争。但撤军在很大程度上被批评为军事和情报失败因为一旦塔利班夺取了控制权，那么多美国人和美国盟友就没有办法逃脱。
“那是什么样的计划，你相信吗——就像你现在看到的，军方喜欢为最坏的情况做计划——这个计划是可以接受的，也是合适的?”拉德达茨问奥斯汀撤军计划。
“我认为你必须回去看看——政府继承了什么，”奥斯汀回应道，将责任归咎于拜登的前任。“我的意思是我们进来了，当我们进来的时候——走进门，你知道，我们面临着5月1日的最后期限，所有部队都要撤离这个国家。这笔交易是与塔利班达成的。”
“最终，总统做出了决定，”国防部长补充道。“但同样，他面临着没有好的选择的局面，一切都非常艰难。而且，你知道，他是在彻底分析的基础上做出决定的。”
独家:被问及美国从阿富汗撤军是否可以处理得更好时，普雷斯。拜登说@ GStephanopoulos“这种想法认为，不知何故，有一种方法可以在不引起混乱的情况下逃脱——我不知道这是如何发生的。”https://t.co/ISdFsm8q1apic.twitter.com/gv5wNhpEvr
—美国广播公司新闻政治(@美国广播公司政治)2021年8月19日
总统，在独家采访中随着美国广播公司新闻记者乔治·斯特凡诺普洛斯，周三说，“这种想法认为，不知何故，有一种方法可以在没有随之而来的混乱的情况下逃脱——我不知道这是如何发生的。”
奥斯汀告诉拉德达茨，他同意总统的意见评价。
他说:“我同意，如果——如果一个政府崩溃到现在的程度，如果安全部队以现在的速度蒸发，你显然会陷入混乱。“这就是我们看到的。”
拉德达茨问，他是否希望看到一小部分美国军队留在阿富汗，但奥斯汀不愿透露他的意见。
奥斯汀回应说:“我不会告诉你我给我们总统的建议是什么，我只会告诉你，和其他人一样，总统听取了我们的意见。“他进行了一个非常严格和深思熟虑的过程，他做出了一个决定，我支持这个决定。”
奥斯汀告诉拉德达茨，他对阿富汗军队如此迅速地崩溃感到惊讶，尤其是在美国在该地区驻扎了20年之后。
奥斯汀说:“我要再次告诉你，20年最好的训练，世界上最好的装备，你知道很多努力——你必须对你所看到的感到惊讶，当你能衡量能力时，你就能衡量能力，但很难衡量战斗的意志。
当被问及金星家庭和退伍军人应该如何看待阿富汗再次落入塔利班控制时，奥斯汀说，在阿富汗服役后，他同情他们。
“有些人会挣扎，”他说。“当你挣扎的时候，我会要求我们的队友意识到有帮助。如果你需要帮助，不要犹豫，尽管开口。”
关于阿富汗的最终结果，奥斯汀说，他不知道。
奥斯汀说:“很久很久以前，我就退出了做预测的行业，但我认为这是一个有待书写的篇章。
。@ martharaddatz:“你认为最后的结果会是什么?”@ SeCOdef奥斯汀:“很久很久以前，我就不再做预测了。但我认为这显然是一个尚未写完的章节。”https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/JU1DoSNVeM
—本周(@本周ABC)2021年8月22日
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says US will look for every way possible to get people to Kabul airport
No one predictedthat the Afghanistan government would collapse in 11 days, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said in an exclusive interview with ABC "This Week" co-anchor Martha Raddatz.
"It was a very rapid, fast-moving, fast-paced evolution," Austin said. "This all occurred in a span of about 11 days. Nobody predicted that, you know, the government would fall in 11 days."
Austin said early U.S. intelligence estimates varied widely as to how long the Afghan government could last against theTalibanafter aU.S. military withdrawal.
"There were assessments that ranged initially from one to two years to, you know, several months, but it was a wide range of -- of assessments," Austin said. "As the Taliban began to make gains, and then we saw that in a number of cases, there was less fighting and more surrendering and more forces just kind of evaporating, it was very difficult to predict with accuracy."
"We're going to try our very best to get everybody—every American citizen who wants to get out, out."EXCLUSIVE:@MarthaRaddatzpresses@SecDefLloyd Austin on whether Americans and Afghan allies will be evacuated by the Aug. 31 deadline.https://t.co/w2SQReUj8Xpic.twitter.com/dIlvuByyVz
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
Desperate scramble at the Kabul airport
Chaos immediately broke out across Afghanistan after the Taliban seized control just over one week ago.
Afghans and foreign nationals flooded Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul on Monday, hoping to escape, butaccessing the airportproved much more difficult than anticipated, with the Taliban taking control of roads leading to the airport, stopping most who passed.
Video shows hundreds of people running alongside a U.S. Air Force C-17 transport plane as it moves down a runway of the Kabul airport.https://t.co/9KvlpGgLnMpic.twitter.com/osGnDQX9rb
— ABC News (@ABC)August 16, 2021
Once at there, the scene was still chaotic. Several people -- desperate to escape -- clung to the side of a C-17 cargo plane. Some died as the plane took off, falling from the aircraft, and human remains werelater foundin the wheel well.
American and NATO troops were eventually able to restore security at the airport and U.S. military commanders engaged in talks with their Taliban counterparts about Americans accessing the airport.
"If you have an American passport and if you have the right credentials, the Taliban has been allowing people to -- to pass safely through," Austin said.
"Not in all cases," Raddatz interjected.
"There's no such thing as an absolute," the defense secretary conceded. "And this kind of environment as you would imagine, Martha, there have been incidents of people, you know, having some tough encounters with Taliban."
Austin said when the U.S. hears about these incidents, they engage Taliban leadership and tell them that the U.S. expects the Taliban to let people with the appropriate credentials past checkpoints.
But even with the right credentials, some have been turned away. ABC News has previously reported that House members were told that the Taliban beat U.S. citizens attempting to evacuate. Additionally, at least 20 people have died in the past seven days in and around the airport, a NATO official told Reuters on Sunday.
Pressed on why U.S. troops can't extend operations to help Americans and Afghan allies get to Kabul airport,@SecDeftells@martharaddatz: "We're going to look at every means possible to get American citizens, third country nationals... into the airfield."https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/4hZvrsqwcw
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
Most of the 17,000 evacuees who have been flown out of the airport since this weekend are Afghans who worked with American troops over the past two decades.
According to Austin, these types of evacuations -- where thousands of people need to be flown safely out, then processed and verified, all during a global pandemic -- can create some of the most challenging missions.
"It's a dynamic and challenging environment," Austin said. "As you would imagine, you know, a noncombatant evacuation operation is one of the most challenging operations in the inventory."
MORE:@MarthaRaddatz: "Will you ask the president to extend the deadline if they're not out?"@SecDefAustin: "As we approach that deadline, we'll make a recommendation to the president."https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/FJWvZrsWAO
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
While the U.S. military has sent over 5,800 troops to secure the airport, the evacuation has been largely criticized for being too little, too late. But Austin insisted the U.S. military would get as many people out as possible.
"Martha, we're gonna try our very best to get everybody, every American citizen who wants to get out, out," Austin said.
"You said American citizens, what about those Afghans?" Raddatz pressed. "What about those interpreters? What about the people who are desperate?"
"Absolutely, the people that are in the Special Immigrant Visa program are very, very important to us and these would be the interpreters and many of the staff that supported our embassy and other embassies," Austin responded.
Ernst calls evacuation efforts 'one of the biggest debacles'
The U.S. should send more troops into Afghanistan to help evacuate American citizens and Afghans who supported the U.S., Republican senator Joni Ernst, R-Iowa, said in a separate interview on "This Week" on Sunday.
"We should be doing everything possible to get Americans safely to the airport for evacuation," Ernst told Raddatz. "We are the strongest military on the face of this planet, and we should be exercising those authorities to make sure that we're flexing our military muscle, especially when it comes to evacuating Americans."
GOP@SenJoniErnsttells@MarthaRaddatzU.S. troops should be assisting Americans to safely reach the Kabul airport: "We should be doing everything possible to get Americans safely to the airport for evacuation."https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/CAnESTflDk
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
Ernst, a combat veteran, called the effort to evacuate the Kabul embassy "one of the biggest debacles that we have seen in the last several decades."
"We have been on the administration for months now to be working on the vetting process to make sure we're working with those interpreters to get them safely out of the country," Ernst said.
"If there are Afghans that need to be evacuated that aren't fully vetted, we do have third-country partners that are working with us in this effort," Ernst added. "We can evacuate these Afghans to those countries to continue the vetting process from there and I think we should be doing absolutely everything we can to assist those who assisted us in the past two decades in the global war on terror."
Pressed on whether the U.S. would welcome Afghan refugees,@SenJoniErnsttells@martharaddatz: "We want to welcome those that are fully vetted...that is extremely important that we make sure that they are vetted before they touch down on American soil."https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/pfifdmfLcC
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
For the most part, Americans and U.S. allies have had to find their own way to the airport. But when that proves to be impossible, Austin said they've used creative ways to do outreach. The U.S. military has performed at least one mission outside of the airport, flying three CH-47 Chinook helicopters to pick up 169 American citizens from a hotel in Kabul.
"I know you've gone 1,000 yards outside the airport and brought those 169 people in there," Raddatz pressed Austin. "But further out into Kabul, there are people desperate to get in. We're the most capable military in the world."
"We are, and that most capable military in the world is going to make sure that our airfield remains secure and safe and we're going to defend that airfield," Austin responded.
Aug. 31 deadline rapidly approaching
The defense secretary added that the U.S. military will look for every way possible to get American citizens, third-country nationals and special immigrant visa applicants to the Kabul airport.
"What's most important though, Martha, and I mean this sincerely, we're going to look at every way -- every means possible to get American citizens, third-country nationals, special immigrant visa applicants into the airfield, and we will work this until the very last day that we're able to work it before we have to leave," Austin said.
Raddatz pressed Austin on whether the U.S. would expand their mission to evacuate allies further into the city of Kabul.
"Do you think it's possible we'll expand the mission and go beyond that 1,000 yards to help people out?" Raddatz asked.
"I won't forecast any option that we may take, but I will tell you that I'm going to do everything within my power to get people into the airfield," Austin said.
Austin added that the goal is to finish the evacuation by Aug. 31, but hinted that the deadline may get pushed back.
"If we're given more time, then we will do everything that we can to make the best use of that time," he said.
Austin said the job of processing and issuing special immigrant visa applicants to Afghan allies primarily falls under the State Department, but is shared by many agencies.
"It's an interagency process that's really honchoed or led by the State Department," he said. "But it's all of our responsibility."
Defending the withdrawal, Austin also points to what the administration inherited
President Joe Biden, who announced the withdrawal in April, has been pushing for the U.S. to end its longest war for years. But the withdrawal has largely been criticized as both amilitary and intelligence failuresince so many Americans and U.S. allies were left with no means to escape once the Taliban seized control.
"What kind of planning went into that, and and do you believe -- as you look at it now, and the military loves to plan for the worst case -- that the planning was acceptable and appropriate?" Raddatz asked Austin of the withdrawal planning.
"I think you have to go back and look at what -- what the administration inherited," Austin responded, placing the blame on Biden's predecessor. "I mean we came in, and as we as we came in -- walked in the door, you know, we were faced with a May 1 deadline to have all forces out of the country. This deal had been struck with the Taliban."
"At the end of the day, the president made his decision," the defense secretary added. "But again, he was faced with a situation where there were no good options, all were very tough. And, you know, he reached his decisions based upon thorough analysis."
EXCLUSIVE: Pressed on whether the U.S.'s exit from Afghanistan could have been handled better, Pres. Biden tells@GStephanopoulos, "The idea that somehow, there's a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing—I don't know how that happens."https://t.co/ISdFsm8q1apic.twitter.com/gv5wNhpEvr
— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics)August 19, 2021
The president,in an exclusive interviewwithABC News' George Stephanopoulos, said on Wednesday, "The idea that somehow, there's a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing -- I don't know how that happens."
Austin told Raddatz that he agreed with the president'sassessment.
"I agree that if -- if a government collapses to the degree that it did, if the security forces evaporate at the speed that they did, you will clearly have chaos," he said. "And that's what we saw."
Raddatz asked whether he wanted to see a small force of U.S. troops remain in Afghanistan, but Austin would not reveal his opinion.
"I'm not gonna tell you what my recommendation to our president was, I will just tell you that, like everyone else, the president listened to our input," Austin responded. "He conducted a very rigorous and thoughtful process and he made a decision, and I support that decision."
Austin told Raddatz that he was surprised the Afghan army collapsed so quickly, particularly after 20 years of U.S. military presence in the region.
"I will tell you that again, 20 years of the best training, the world's best equipment, you know a lot of effort -- you have to be surprised by what you saw and when you can measure capability you can measure capacity, but it's difficult to measure the will to fight," Austin said.
When asked how Gold Star families and veterans should feel about Afghanistan falling under the control of the Taliban once again, Austin said that having served himself in Afghanistan, he empathized with them.
"Some will struggle," he said. "And as you struggle, I would ask our teammates to recognize that there is help. If you need help, don't hesitate to ask for it."
On what the final outcome will be in Afghanistan, Austin said he does not know.
"I've gotten out of the business of making predictions long, long ago, but I think that's a chapter that's yet to be written," Austin said.
.@martharaddatz: "What do you think the final outcome will be there?"@SecDefAustin: "I've gotten out of the business of making predictions long, long ago. But I think that's a chapter that's yet to be written, obviously."https://t.co/VfgGeUIlojpic.twitter.com/JU1DoSNVeM
— This Week (@ThisWeekABC)August 22, 2021
