共和党众议员利兹·切尼曾经是共和党内的一颗新星，被认为是众议院的潜在议长，她告诉美国广播公司新闻首席华盛顿记者乔纳森·卡尔，她对自己的政治生涯没有遗憾，包括她在初选中的压倒性胜利怀俄明州的损失周二，她说她现在正全力以赴让唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)离开白宫。
在美国广播公司“本周”的一次内容广泛的独家采访中，切尼还讨论了联邦调查局搜查在这位前总统的Mar-a-Lago庄园——称调查是一个非常严重的事态发展，并表示她对一些攻击司法部和联邦调查局的共和党同事感到“羞愧”。
切尼担任1月6日调查国会大厦袭击事件的特别委员会副主席，并在委员会听证室与卡尔交谈，她还说，她仍然希望前副总统迈克·彭斯在不久的将来在委员会面前作证，并补充说，与他的法律团队的谈话正在进行中。
切尼对共和党同僚对Mar-a-Lago搜查的反应感到“羞愧”
在接受美国广播公司(ABC)卡尔(Karl)采访时，切尼对联邦调查局本月早些时候在特朗普的Mar-a-Lago住所进行的搜查进行了权衡，并表示，她对国会共和党人跳出来为特朗普辩护并指责司法部具有政治恶意感到羞愧。
“那是一件非常严重的事情。我认为，当你想到这样一个事实，即我们处于这样一个位置，即联邦调查局、司法部感到有必要对一位前总统的住宅执行搜查令——这对国家来说是一件非常严重的事情。
发布的搜查令的编辑副本在华盛顿引起了轩然大波，因为它透露司法部正在调查在搜查Mar a Lago时可能违反了至少三项独立的刑事法规，包括妨碍司法公正和《间谍法》下的一项罪行。
伴随搜查令的一份财产收据显示，特工们查获了多箱各种类别的文件，包括一套涉及“机密/TS/SCI文件”(首字母缩写代表绝密/敏感的划分信息，不是每个人都可以查看，即使是绝密许可)和另外四套绝密文件。
特朗普的团队尚未采取法庭行动，尽管他们公开试图向司法部施压，要求其公布逮捕令的完整证词。
特朗普最近几天呼吁“立即释放”这份宣誓书，同时对联邦调查局和司法部进行各种攻击，同时还通过他的社交媒体网站要求将文件归还给他。
突袭之后，越来越多的共和党人在推特上发帖，一些人攻击司法部和联邦调查局，包括众议院共和党领袖凯文·麦卡锡。
他在推特上发布了一份声明，其中部分内容是，“司法部已经达到了令人无法容忍的武器化政治化状态。”
切尼说:“听到共和党人立即本能地攻击执行搜查令的联邦调查局特工，我感到很惭愧。”。
切尼还指责特朗普向媒体机构发布未经编辑的搜查令，媒体机构随后在没有删除涉案特工姓名的情况下发布了搜查令的内容。全国各地的执法机构正在积极监控突袭后出现的越来越多的愤怒的网上言论和威胁。
切尼说:“当我得知特朗普总统公布了那些特工的名字，当他公布未经编辑的搜查令时，我感到很反感，这现在已经引起了暴力。”
美国广播公司新闻没有证实切尼的说法。
“我们已经看到了暴力威胁，法官本人，他的犹太教堂不得不取消服务，因为暴力威胁。这是一个非常危险的时刻，看到美国前总统，我的同事们煽风点火，而不是说，'我们需要了解事实'。我们需要了解证据，我们需要了解发生了什么的信息……我认为美国人民看到了什么是虚伪，这是危险的虚伪，”切尼说。
“我没有看到任何证据表明有任何政治动机，”切尼补充说，以回应她的一些共和党同事指责DOJ。
佛罗里达州的一名治安法官周四表示，尽管司法部反对，他可能会设法启封誓章的某些部分。
在听取了媒体联盟要求公开宣誓书的当面辩论后，法官表示，他可能会决定至少部分宣誓书可以在政府编辑的情况下解封。
司法部曾敦促法官布鲁斯·莱因哈特(Bruce Reinhart)将这份宣誓书完全保密，称如果公开，可能会对正在进行的刑事调查“造成重大且不可挽回的损害”，该调查涉及与国家安全相关的高度机密材料。
“我认为这将为我们提供更多的信息，”切尼说。“在我看来。新闻报道称，他们在决定哪些内容需要编辑，哪些内容可以发布方面是负责任的。但似乎也存在这样一种情况，即无论这些信息在哪里，都有人在努力获取这些信息，而且你知道，前总统不愿意归还这些材料。现在，我们将看到，我们将了解更多，”切尼说。
切尼说:“这是一件非常严重的事情，我只是认为，对于我们党来说，我们本能地攻击职业执法人员，以捍卫一位以这种方式行事的前总统，这对党来说是非常悲伤的一天。”
“会不会是他对政府记录和机密信息的处理——这可能是唐纳德·特朗普在经历了这一切之后下台的原因?”卡尔问道。
“我是说，瞧，好吧，我们走着瞧。每个人都有义务和责任。而且，你知道，很明显，处理机密信息是一件非常严肃的事情，所以，我当然不知道为什么执行搜查令的所有方面。但是，你知道，我们会看到更多的信息出来。”
切尼希望彭斯将于1月6日向委员会作证，可能会问特朗普
切尼告诉卡尔，她希望前副总统迈克·彭斯在不久的将来能在1月6日的特别委员会面前作证。
彭斯本周表示，如果被邀请，他会考虑在委员会面前作证。
“我们已经和他的律师讨论过了，”切尼说。
“看，他在1月6日发挥了关键作用，如果他屈服于唐纳德·特朗普对他施加的压力，我们就会面临更严重的宪法危机。我认为，正如他所表达的那样，他显然对行政特权感到担忧，你知道，我对此非常尊重。我认为，就分权而言，这是非常重要的宪法问题，”她说。
“我相信行政特权。我认为这很重要。但我也认为，当这个国家经历了如此严重的事情时，每个掌握信息的人都有义务站出来。所以，我希望他会这样做，”切尼说。
“那么，你认为我们会在9月份在委员会面前的这个房间里看到他吗?”卡尔问道。
切尼说:“我希望他会明白，让美国人民了解那天发生的事情的真相的各个方面是多么重要。”。
切尼被问及特朗普是否会被要求作证，她表示这仍然是一种可能性。
“今天早上我不想就此发表任何声明。所以，我就把它放在这里吧，”她说。
“但是在结束之前，你可能会要求他作证吗?”卡尔催促道。
“是的。我的意思是，我不-再说一次，我不想在委员会审议之前。我认为这非常重要，正如我在第一次听证会或第二次听证会上所说的，你知道，他与我们委员会的互动将在宣誓之下进行，”切尼回答说。
切尼不关心共和党的报复
切尼告诉卡尔，她希望委员会在调查过程中收集的文字记录、记录和其他材料能够公之于众。
“是啊，这都是公开记录。随着我们的调查结束和得出结论，它将会公之于众。
她说，如果未来共和党领导的众议院选择调查一些共和党人呼吁的1月6日特别委员会的成员，她愿意出庭。
切尼说:“如果凯文·麦卡锡或吉姆·乔丹，或任何其他试图调查该委员会的人，实施这一威胁，并发出传票让我出庭，我将遵守传票，我将欢迎有机会向他们解释我们到底发现了什么以及唐纳德·特朗普对国家构成的威胁。”
“我会说，你知道，他们也应该这样做。他们都在完全逃避他们的义务和责任来证明他们所知道的事情。我认为，这再次表明他们放弃了宪法赋予他们的责任。
切尼:对政治生涯“不后悔”，主要损失
“我认为，从一开始就很清楚，真的，从我投票弹劾的那一刻起，将会有潜在的政治后果，”切尼告诉卡尔她投票弹劾特朗普。
切尼承认，如果她想挽救自己的政治生涯和她在众议院的席位(她已经担任了近6年的席位)，这需要她做一些她不愿意做的事情:“(这)需要接受关于选举的谎言，需要促成这一点，而我只是不愿意这样做。所以，你知道，在每一个时刻，我知道我必须做正确的事情，”切尼说。
“这不仅仅是失去一个众议院席位。我的意思是，你被认为，你处于领导地位，你被认为是未来的众议院议长，甚至可能是下一任众议院议长。放弃太多了。有遗憾吗?”卡尔问切尼。
“不后悔，”切尼回答说。
“我觉得我对我的聚会地点感到难过。切尼说:“我感到难过的是，我的太多同事对我认为是我们这个时代的一个巨大的道德考验和挑战——一个决定人们是否会站起来代表民主、代表我们的共和国的伟大时刻——的反应方式。
“所以，这么多人没有通过测试确实让我很难过，但肯定没有遗憾。我的意思是，对我来说，从来没有任何问题是什么是在这里经营的正确方式，做什么是正确的，”她补充说。
在周二的选举失利后，切尼说她接到了一个电话，不是别人，正是现任总统乔·拜登。
“我确实收到了拜登总统的来信。我们进行了一次非常非常好的谈话——一次关于将国家置于党派之外的重要性的谈话，”她说，并补充说她也听到了一些她在国会的共和党同事的话，但她没有说出他们的名字。
“我认为我的一些同事做了正确的事情。我会，你知道，当然把我们这些投票弹劾的人放在那一类，其他一些人表达了他们的观点，你知道，他们是支持的，他们希望他们做了正确的事情。和许多其他人，你知道，只是选择了另一条道路。
在2021年投票弹劾前总统川普的其他九名众议院共和党人人中，切尼表示，他们将永远被那次投票联系在一起。
“我认为这是一种纽带。她说:“这是一种纽带，我们已经谈过了，你知道，我们有不同的看法，我们10个人在一系列其他问题上有不同的看法，但是，我们都做出了决定，并为这个决定承担了后果，这一事实将是我想象中永远的纽带。”。
称仍支持特朗普的大部分共和党人“非常不舒服”
“我认为，很明显，他在共和党的一些人当中拥有很强的影响力，”切尼说，这反映了她在初选中的失败。
“我认为，第一，它说人们继续相信谎言，他们继续相信他所说的，这是非常危险的。我认为这也告诉你，我们党的很大一部分人，包括我们党的领导层，无论是在怀俄明州一级，还是在RNC一级，都非常虚弱。
她说:“我们真的必须决定，我们是要成为一个基于实质和政策的政党，还是要像今天我们党的许多人一样，被一位危险的前总统掌控。”。
切尼加倍强调，面对仍被前总统控制的共和党，她相信自己的原则是什么，以及在考虑自己的政治未来时，她将继续为之奋斗的目标是什么。
“我为之奋斗的是宪法。我为共和国的永存而战。我为之奋斗的是法治——每个人都必须遵守法治的事实。我所争取的是这样一个事实，即选举必须是重要的，当选举结束，法院做出裁决，选举团开会，美国总统必须尊重选举的结果。我所争取的是我们权力和平过渡的原则，我们不能根据暴力来决定谁来统治，”她说。
突显了扳倒特朗普的新努力
切尼希望将她在初选中的压倒性失败转变为全国性的运动不让唐纳德·特朗普入主白宫。她计划在未来几周成立一个政治组织，教育美国人民了解国家面临的持续威胁，并动员团结一致的努力，反对唐纳德·特朗普竞选总统的任何活动。
“首先，很明显，我们在特别委员会还有大量的工作要做，作为怀俄明州在国会的代表还有大量的工作要做。此外，我将非常专注于工作，以确保我们尽一切努力不选举否认选举的人。
“我认为，全国各地都有否认选举的人被提名担任真正重要的职位。我要和那些人作对。我要努力支持他们的对手。我认为这很重要，”她说。
“我还将花大量时间尽我所能帮助教育美国人民了解所发生的事情。我认为我们的听证会为此做出了巨大的贡献。我认为，对你认识的人来说，非常重要的是，所有年龄段的人都应该理解和认识到，为什么上次选举后发生的事情再也不会发生了。
切尼仍在考虑2024年的总统竞选，可能会在她在众议院的任期结束后做出决定
切尼拒绝进一步澄清她自己可能的总统竞选，只是说她仍在权衡她的选择。
切尼告诉卡尔:“我从实质的角度关注这个问题，我真的认为这个国家面临着严重的威胁，当我在未来几个月完成我在国会的工作，并就我如何才能最好地帮助确保我们正确的政治船做出决定时，你知道，我会就接下来的事情做出决定。”
“你竞选总统是因为你相信你会是最好的，最好的候选人，因为你相信你会是美国最好的总统。所以，我所做的任何决定都是为了获胜，因为我认为我是最佳人选。
当被卡尔问及她是否会以独立候选人的身份参选时，“就猜测而言，我今天不会再走那条路了，”她笑着说。
“我是说，看，我真的很专注。我们有大量的工作要做。你和我坐在大炮会议室里。关于特别委员会，我们还有大量的工作要做，在接下来的几个月里，我代表怀俄明州还有非常重要的工作要做，这也是我的工作重点。之后我会决定接下来做什么，”她说。
切尼不会在2024年支持特朗普，或其他“选举否认者”
“一年多前，你告诉我，你认为唐纳德·特朗普不会再次赢得共和党提名。你说过有成千上万的共和党人不会让这种事情发生。你还相信吗?我的意思是，现在他看起来像压倒性的领先者，”卡尔问切尼。
“我认为我们必须确保他不是我们的提名人，”切尼说。
“我相信共和党的政策，我相信如果你考虑国家需要去哪里，什么对我们的国家最好，我相信强大的国防，当然今天比以往任何时候都更相信。我们需要它来应对我们面临的威胁。我相信低税收。我相信有限政府。我相信家庭应该是我们生活和社区的中心——这是传统的共和价值观。我相信这是我们未来需要的，”切尼说。
“我认为，如果我们的政党为了信奉个人崇拜而放弃了原则、价值观和对宪法的基本忠诚，我们就没有机会赢得选举。我认为这是非常危险的，原因有很多，”她说。
切尼说，特朗普发起了一场运动，如果共和党要生存，美国人必须超越这场运动。
“唐纳德·特朗普肯定是威胁的中心。我认为你知道，他所做的和他所创造的在某种程度上是一场后真理的运动。我认为，你知道，社交媒体肯定对此有所贡献。但是否认选举，否认基本的功能和原则——从广义上讲，我们立宪共和国的核心是危险的，他肯定在领导这项努力，领导这场运动。
“因为我们确切地知道他会做什么，因为他已经做了，你知道，派遣一群武装暴徒到国会大厦试图推翻选举结果。在我看来，如果我们原谅这一点，让他再次掌权，这个国家根本没有办法自我维持。
切尼说:“我认为，作为一个国家，无论我们是共和党人、民主党人还是无党派人士，我们都必须拒绝这一点。”。“我相信，跨党派人士组成了一个联盟，他们明白我们肯定在我们的委员会中看到了这一点。我们在全国各地都看到了这一点，理解我们的人们可以同意，在某些问题上我们永远不会在政治上达成一致，但是我们必须团结起来，你知道，跨越那些党派界限，以便保护我们自己免受这种威胁。
切尼说，她会发现很难支持未来与川普结盟的共和党总统候选人，并以共和党参议员特德·克鲁兹和乔希·霍利以及佛罗里达州州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯为例。
“这将非常困难，”切尼说。“我认为，对我来说，一个关于某人是否适合当总统的根本问题是，他们过去是否遵守了宪法义务。”
“我认为，当你看到像乔希·霍利这样的人，或者像特德·克鲁兹这样的人，他们两人都更清楚，他们两人都确切知道国会在总统选举中的宪法义务方面的作用，但他们两人都在上次选举后采取了从根本上威胁宪法秩序和结构的措施。所以，你知道，在我看来，他们都不适合未来的职位。
“德桑蒂斯现在正在为否认选举的人造势。我认为，你知道，这是我们必须真正暂停的事情。要么你从根本上相信并将支持我们的宪法结构，要么你不相信，”她说。
House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, is followed by reporter as he walks to his office on Capitol Hill, Aug. 12, 2022.
苏珊·沃尔什/美联社
切尼猛烈抨击麦卡锡:“他完全违背了宪法”
切尼说，她将竞选反对任何否认选举结果的共和党候选人，包括她在国会的同事，如麦卡锡。
麦卡锡一反传统，在周二的竞选中支持切尼的主要挑战者哈里特·哈格曼。
自从她在2021年因多次批评特朗普而被赶出众议院领导职位以来，切尼和麦卡锡的关系一直非常紧张。纽约共和党众议员Elise Stefanik最终取代了她的领导地位。
卡尔问切尼，“如果凯文·麦卡锡成为下一任众议院议长，这个国家会变得更好还是更糟?”
切尼说:“嗯，我对凯文·麦卡锡的看法非常清楚。“众议院议长是第二号总统候选人。这需要有人理解并认识到他们的职责、他们的誓言、他们的义务，而他已经完全违背了宪法，并表现出对议长角色的意义和重要性完全缺乏理解，所以我认为他不应该成为众议院议长，我认为这一点已经很清楚了。”
“所以，听起来这是一个肯定的回答，如果他是议长，这个国家会变得更糟?”卡尔问道。
“我不认为他应该成为众议院议长，”切尼说。
Liz Cheney on stopping Trump, Pence testifying on Jan. 6: 'This Week' exclusive
GOP Rep. Liz Cheney, once a rising star in the Republican Party and considered a potential speaker of the House, told ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl she has no regrets about her political career, including her landslide primary electionloss in Wyomingon Tuesday, saying she is now laser-focused on keeping Donald Trump out of the White House.
In an exclusive wide-ranging interview for ABC's "This Week," Cheney also discussed theFBI searchat the former president's Mar-a-Lago estate – calling the investigation a very serious development and saying she is "ashamed" at some of her Republican colleagues who have attacked the Justice Department and the FBI.
Cheney, who serves as vice chair of the Jan. 6 Select Committee investigating the Capitol attack -- and speaking with Karl in the committee hearing room -- also said she still hopes former Vice President Mike Pence testifies before the panel in the near future, adding that conversations with his legal team are ongoing.
Cheney 'ashamed' at Republican colleagues' reaction to Mar-a-Lago search
During her sit-down interview with ABC's Karl, Cheney weighed in on the FBI's search executed at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence earlier this month and said she was ashamed that congressional Republicans had leapt to Trump's defense and had accused the Justice Department of political malice.
"That's a very serious thing. I think that when you think about the fact that we were in a position where the FBI, the Department of Justice, felt the need to execute a search warrant at the home of a former president -- that's a really serious thing for the nation," she said.
The redacted copy of the search warrant released sent shockwaves through Washington, as it revealed the Justice Department was investigating the potential violation of at least three separate criminal statutes in its search of Mar a Lago, including obstruction of justice and one crime under the Espionage Act.
A property receipt accompanying the warrant shows agents seized multiple boxes of documents of various classifications, including one set referring to "classified/TS/SCI documents" (the acronym stands for top secret/sensitive compartmentalized information that not everyone with even top-secret clearance can view) and four other sets of top-secret documents.
Trump's team has yet to take court action despite publicly trying to pressure the Justice Department to release the full affidavit underlying the warrant.
Trump in recent days has called for the "immediate release" of the affidavit while leveling various attacks at the FBI and Justice Department, while also demanding over his social media website that the documents be returned to him.
Following the raid, a growing list of Republicans tweeted, with some attacking the Justice Department and the FBI, including House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy.
He tweeted a statement that read, in part, "The Department of Justice has reached an intolerable state of weaponized politicization."
"I was ashamed to hear Republicans immediately and reflexively attack the FBI agents who executed the search warrant," Cheney said.
Cheney also accused Trump of releasing the unredacted search warrant to media organizations who then posted its contents without removing the names of the agents involved. Law enforcement agencies around the country are actively monitoring growing strains of angry online rhetoric and threats that have emerged in the wake of the raid.
"I was disgusted when I learned that President Trump had released the names of those agents, when he released the unredacted search warrant, and that has now caused violence," Cheney said.
ABC News has not confirmed Cheney's claim.
"We've seen threats of violence, the judge himself, his synagogue had to cancel services because of threats of violence. This is a really dangerous moment and to see the former president of the United States, my colleagues stoking the flames of that instead of saying, 'We need to learn the facts. We need to learn the evidence we need to learn the information about what happened … I think that the American people see what hypocrisy that is and it's dangerous hypocrisy," Cheney said.
"I've seen no evidence that there was any political motivation," Cheney added, in response to some of her Republican colleagues who have accused the DOJ of that.
A magistrate judge in Florida on Thursday said, despite Justice Department objections,he may seek to unseal portions of the affidavit.
After hearing in-person arguments on a request from a coalition of media outlets to make the affidavit public, the judge said he might decide that at least a portion of the affidavit could be unsealed with government redactions.
The Justice Department had urged the judge, Bruce Reinhart, to keep the affidavit fully under seal, arguing that if it were to be made public it could "cause significant and irreparable damage" to an ongoing criminal investigation involving highly classified materials related to national security.
"I think that will provide us additional information," Cheney said. "It sounds to me from watching. The news reports that they're acting responsibly in terms of determining what has to be redacted and, and what can be released. But it also seems to be the case that there were clearly ongoing efforts to get back wherever this information was, and that it was not presented, you know, that the former president was unwilling to give back these materials. Now, we will see, we'll learn more," Cheney said.
"It's a really serious thing and I just think that for us as a party to be in a position where we're reflexively attacking career law enforcement professionals in order to defend a former president who conducted himself the way this one did, is it's really sad day for the party," Cheney said.
"Could it be that his handling of government records, classified information -- that that could be what brings Donald Trump down after all of this?" Karl asked.
"I mean, look, well, we'll see. Everyone has an obligation and a responsibility. And, you know, clearly, the handling of classified information is something that's really serious, so, I don't know all of the aspects of why the search warrant was executed, certainly. But, you know, we'll see as additional information comes out."
Cheney hopes Pence will testify to Jan. 6 committee, possible Trump could be asked
Cheney told Karl that she hopes that former Vice President Mike Pence will testify before the Jan. 6 Select Committee in the near future.
Pence had indicated this week that he would consider testifying before the committee if he were invited to do so.
"We've been in discussions with his counsel," Cheney said.
"Look, he played a critical role on January 6, if he had succumbed to the pressure that Donald Trump was putting on him, we would have had a much worse constitutional crisis. And I think that he has clearly, as he's expressed, concerns about executive privilege, which, you know, I have tremendous respect. I think it's, it's, you know, hugely important constitutional issue in terms of separation of powers," she said.
"I believe in executive privilege. I think it matters. But I also think that when the country has been through something, as grave as this was, everyone who has information has an obligation to step forward. So, I would hope that that he will do that," Cheney said.
"So, you think we'll see him here in September in this room before the committee?" Karl asked.
"I would hope that he will understand how important it is for the American people to know every aspect of the truth about what happened that day," Cheney said.
Cheney was asked if Trump would be asked to testify and she indicated that it remains a possibility.
"I don't want to make any announcements about that this morning. So, let me just leave it there," she said.
"But it's possible you would ask him, before wrapping up, to testify?" Karl pressed.
"Yes. I mean, I don't -- again, I don't want to get in front of committee deliberations about that. I do think it's very important, as I said in the first hearing or the second hearing, you know, his interactions with our committee will be under oath," Cheney replied.
Cheney not concerned with Republican retribution
Cheney told Karl that she expects transcripts, records and other materials gathered by the committee over the course of its investigation will be made public.
"Yeah, it's all public record. It will be it will be available publicly as our investigation wraps up and concludes," Cheney said.
She said she will willingly appear if she is ever subpoenaed in the future should a Republican-led House choose to investigate members of the Jan. 6 Select Committee, which some Republicans have called for.
"If Kevin McCarthy or Jim Jordan, or any of the other individuals who are trying to investigate the committee, carry through on that threat, and issue a subpoena for me to appear, I will abide by that subpoena and I will welcome the opportunity to come and explain to them exactly what we found and the threat that Donald Trump poses to the country," Cheney said.
"And I would say, you know, they ought to do the same. They are all completely shirking their obligations and their responsibilities to come and testify about what they know. And I think, again, that's an abdication of their responsibility under the Constitution," Cheney said.
Cheney: 'No regrets' about political career, primary loss
"I think that it was clear, really, from the beginning -- the moment that I voted to impeach -- that there were going to be potential political consequences," Cheney told Karl of her vote to impeach Trump.
Cheney admitted that had she wanted to save her political career and her seat in the House -- a seat she has held for nearly six years -- it would have required something of her that she was unwilling to do: "[It] would have required embracing the lie about the election, would have required enabling that and I just simply wasn't willing to do that. So, you know, at each moment, I knew that I had to do what was right," Cheney said.
"And this wasn't just losing a House seat. I mean, you were considered, you were in leadership, you were considered a future Speaker of the House, maybe even the next Speaker of the House. It's a lot to give up. Any regrets?" Karl asked Cheney.
"No regrets," Cheney replied.
"I feel I feel sad about where my party is. I feel sad about the way that too many of my colleagues have responded to what I think is a great moral test and challenge of our time -- a great moment to determine whether or not people are going to stand up on behalf of the democracy, on behalf of our republic," Cheney said.
"And so, it does make me sad that so many people have failed the test, but certainly no regrets. I mean, to me, there's just never been any question about what was the right way to operate here and the right thing to do," she added.
Following her election loss Tuesday, Cheney said she received a phone call from none other than the current president: Joe Biden.
"I did hear from President Biden. We had a very, very good talk -- a talk about the importance of putting the country ahead of partisanship," she said, adding that she had also heard from some of her Republican colleagues in Congress but she did not name them.
"I think that there are a number of my colleagues who have done the right thing. I would you know, put certainly those of us who voted to impeach in that category, a number of others who expressed the view that, you know, they're supportive, they wish they would have done the right thing. And many others who, you know, have simply chosen another path," Cheney said.
Of the nine other House Republicans who voted to impeach former President Trump in 2021 for his role in inciting an insurrection, Cheney said they will forever be bonded by that vote.
"I think that it is a bond. It's a bond and we've talked about it, you know, we have a difference of opinion, differences of opinion among the 10 of us about a whole range of issues of other issues, but, the fact that we all made the decision we did and have faced consequences for that decision, will be a bond I would imagine forever," she said.
Calls large portions of Republican Party who still support Trump 'very sick'
"I think that clearly his hold is very strong among some portions of the Republican Party," Cheney said, reflecting on her primary election loss.
"I think, one, it says that people continue to believe the lie, they continue to believe what he's saying, which is very dangerous. I think it also tells you that large portions of our party, including the leadership of our party, both at the state level in Wyoming, as well as on a national level with the RNC, is very sick," Cheney said.
"We really have got to decide whether or not we're going to be a party based on substance and policy or whether we're going to remain as so many of our party are today, in the grips of a dangerous former president," she said.
Cheney doubled down on what she believes her principles are in the face of a Republican Party still in the grips of the former president and what she will continue to fight for as she considers her political future.
"What I'm fighting for is the Constitution. What I'm fighting for is the perpetuation of the Republic. What I'm fighting for is the rule of law -- the fact that everybody's got to abide by the rule of law. What I'm fighting for is the fact that elections have to matter and that when the election is over, and the courts have ruled and the electoral college is met, that the president of the United States has to respect the results of the election. What I'm fighting for is the principle that we have a peaceful transition of power, and that we don't determine who rules based upon violence," she said.
Highlights new effort to take down Trump
Cheney is hoping to turn her landslide loss in the primary into anationwide crusadeto keep Donald Trump out of the White House. She plans to launch a political organization in the coming weeks to educate the American people about ongoing threats to the country, and to mobilize a unified effort to oppose any Donald Trump campaign for president.
"First of all, obviously, we have tremendous work left to do on the select committee, tremendous work left to do as Wyoming's representative in Congress. Also, I'm going to be very focused on working to ensure that we do everything we can not to elect election deniers," Cheney said.
"I think that we've got election deniers that have been nominated for really important positions all across the country. And I'm going to work against those people. I'm going to work to support their opponents. I think it matters that much," she said.
"And I'm also going to spend a lot of time doing everything I can to help educate the American people about what happened. And I think our hearings have been a tremendous contribution to that. And I think it's really important for people you know, really across the political spectrum of all ages to understand and recognize why what happened after the last election can never happen again," Cheney said.
Cheney still considering a 2024 presidential run and will likely decide after her tenure in the House is over
Cheney refused to provide further clarity on her own possible presidential run, simply saying that she is still weighing her options.
"I'm focused on this from the perspective of substance, and I really think the country faces grave threats and as I sort of go through finishing my work here in Congress over the next several months, and making a decision about how I can best help to ensure that we right our political ship, you know, I'll make decisions about what comes next," Cheney told Karl.
"You run for president because you believe you would be the best, the best candidate because you believe you'd be the best president United States. And so, any decision that I make about doing something that significant and that serious would be with the intention of winning and because I think I would be the best candidate," she said.
Asked by Karl if she would run as an independent candidate,"I'm not going to go down that path anymore in terms of speculating – today," she said with a laugh.
"I mean, look, I'm really very focused. We have a huge amount of work to do. You and I are sitting here in the Cannon Caucus room. We have a huge amount of work left to do with respect to the Select Committee, and I have really important work left to do representing Wyoming for the next several months and that that is really my focus. And I will make decisions about what comes next after that," she said.
Cheney won't support Trump in 2024, or fellow 'election deniers'
"You told me a little over a year ago, that you didn't think Donald Trump could win the Republican nomination again. You said there are millions and millions of Republicans that wouldn't let that happen. Do you still believe that? I mean, right now he looks like the overwhelming front runner," Karl asked Cheney.
"I think we have to make sure that he is not our nominee," Cheney said.
"I believe in Republican policies, I believe if you think about where the country needs to go, what's best for our nation, I believe in a strong national defense, certainly today more than ever. We need that to confront the threats we face. I believe in low taxes. I believe in limited government. I believe the family should be the center of our lives and our communities – those are traditional Republican values. And I believe that's what we need going into the future," Cheney said.
"I think that we have no chance at winning elections if we are in a position where our party has abandoned principle and abandoned value and abandoned fundamental fidelity of the Constitution in order to embrace a cult of personality. And I think that's really dangerous for a whole bunch of reasons," she said.
Cheney said Trump has created a movement that Americans must look beyond if the Republican Party is to survive.
"Donald Trump is certainly the center of the threat. And I think that you know, what he's done and what he's created is a movement on some level that is post truth. And I think that you know, certainly social media has added to that. But election denial, denying the fundamental function and principle – what is at the center of our constitutional republic is dangerous, broadly speaking, and he is certainly leading that effort, leading that movement," Cheney said.
"Because we know precisely what he will do, because he has done it, you know, sending an armed mob here to the Capitol to try to overturn the results of an election. There's just simply no way that the nation can, in my view, sustain itself if we excuse that and put him in a position of power again," Cheney said.
"I think that as a nation, whether we're Republicans or Democrats or independents, we all have to reject that," Cheney said. "And I believe that there is a coalition of people across the party spectrum, who understand we've certainly seen it on our committee. We've seen it around the country, people who understand we can agree that there are certain issues we're never going to agree on politically, but we have to come together, you know, cross those party lines, in order to protect ourselves against that kind of threat," she said.
Cheney said she would find it difficult to support a future Republican presidential candidate who has aligned his or herself with Trump, pointing to Republicans Sens. Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, and Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, as examples.
"It would be very difficult," Cheney said. "I think that a fundamental question for me in terms of whether or not someone is fit to be president, is whether they've abided by their constitutional obligations in the past."
"I think certainly when you look at somebody like Josh Hawley, or somebody like Ted Cruz, both of whom know better, both of whom know exactly what the role of Congress is, in terms of our constitutional obligations with respect to presidential elections, and yet both of whom took steps that fundamentally threatened the constitutional order and structure in the aftermath of the last election. So, you know, in my view, they both have made themselves unfit for future office," she said.
"DeSantis is somebody who is right now campaigning for election deniers. And I think that, you know, that is something that we've got to have real pause about. Either you fundamentally believe in and will support our constitutional structure, or you don't," she said.
Cheney slams McCarthy: 'He's been completely unfaithful to the Constitution'
Cheney said she will campaign against any Republican candidates who deny election results, including her colleagues in Congress like McCarthy.
McCarthy, bucking tradition, endorsed Cheney's primary challenger Harriet Hageman in Tuesday's race.
Cheney and McCarthy have had a notably strained relationship since she was booted from House leadership in 2021 over her repeated criticisms of Trump. GOP Rep. Elise Stefanik of New York was her eventual replacement in leadership.
Karl asked Cheney, "Is the country better or worse off if Kevin McCarthy is the next speaker of the House?"
"Well, my views about Kevin McCarthy are very clear," Cheney said. "The speaker of the House is the second in line for the presidency. It requires somebody who understands and recognizes their duty, their oath, their obligation and he's been completely unfaithful to the Constitution and demonstrated a total lack of understanding of the significance and importance of the role of speaker, so I don't believe he should be speaker of the House and I think that's been very clear."
"So, it sounds like that's a yes, the country would be worse off if he were speaker?" Karl asked.
"I don't believe he should be speaker of the House," Cheney said.
