众议员利兹·切尼(Liz Cheney)在接受美国广播公司新闻(ABC News)“本周”(This Week)联合主播乔纳森·卡尔(Jonathan Karl)采访时表示，如果起诉得到批准，司法部不应避免起诉与1月6日国会大厦袭击事件有关的唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)。
切尼周三在罗纳德·里根总统图书馆接受采访时说，虽然对前总统提出指控-他可能在2024年挑战乔·拜登总统-对这个国家来说是前所未有的，“困难的”，但不这样做将支持“更严重的宪法威胁”，该采访于周日在“本周”播出。
“你担心一位前总统被起诉对这个国家意味着什么吗?有可能成为候选人的前总统;事实上，谁可能会与拜登竞选总统?”卡尔问切尼。
“我认为，如果一位总统能够参与这种活动，而总统所在政党的大多数人对此视而不见，这将是一个更严重的宪法威胁;或者我们作为一个国家，决定不认真对待我们的宪法义务，”切尼说。“我认为这是一个非常非常严重的威胁。”
“我真的相信我们必须做出这些决定，尽管除了政治之外，这很困难。我们真的必须从这样的角度来思考这些:这对国家意味着什么?”她说。
对哈钦森的证词“绝对有信心”
这位怀俄明州的共和党人告诉卡尔，她对卡西迪·哈钦森惊人的证词上周在一次意外听证会上由众议院委员会于1月6日通过切尼任副主席。
“她是一个非常勇敢的年轻女人，”切尼这样评价哈钦森。
周二，特朗普的白宫办公厅主任马克·梅多斯(Mark Meadows)的前助手作证说，她被告知特朗普在2021年1月6日的集会后得知他不会去国会大厦后，对特勤局特工进行了口头攻击，并扑向他的汽车方向盘。
哈钦森说，特勤局特工托尼·奥尔纳托(Tony Ornato)和特朗普的副幕僚长在事件发生后不久就告诉了她同样的话。哈钦森的账户引起了极大的关注和特朗普的反击。
切尼说:“哈钦森女士作证说，她是奥尔纳托先生的一部分，恩格尔先生(一名特工)在场，他们详细描述了在豪华轿车里发生的事情。”。
“除了卡西迪·哈钦森的证词，你还有其他证据来证实她所说的在总统车队中发生的事情吗?”卡尔问切尼。
切尼回应说:“委员会有关于一系列问题的重要证据，包括总统的强烈愤怒。”
切尼补充说:“我认为，在未来的几天和几周内，你将继续看到有关总统在那一天的活动和行为的更多细节。”。
在给美国广播公司新闻的一份声明中，特勤局表示特工准备向陪审团提供宣誓证词。一位接近特勤局的消息人士向美国广播公司新闻(ABC News)表示，特朗普对车内的特工感到愤怒，但他表示，他没有伸手去抓方向盘，也没有扑向罗伯特·恩格尔(Robert Engel)，他是该小组的首席特工。
哈钦森还声称，特朗普知道他的支持者在1月6日在国会大厦游行之前携带武器。
特朗普周二努力驳回和淡化哈钦森的证词，在社交媒体上发帖称，“我几乎不知道这个人是谁...除了我听到的关于她的非常负面的事情(一个彻头彻尾的骗子和泄密者)。”
“她是个坏消息!”他补充道。
切尼对卡尔说，众议院委员会“不会去袖手旁观，看着她(哈钦森的角色)被匿名人士和声称拥有行政特权的人暗杀。因此，我们非常期待在一系列问题上的宣誓证词。”
篡改证人的刑事转介?
切尼说，在上周的听证会上，一些证人告诉调查人员，特朗普的助手试图影响他们在委员会面前的证词。消息人士后来告诉ABC新闻，哈钦森是收到保护前总统信息的人之一。
“篡改证人是一种犯罪。你是在向DOJ提起刑事诉讼吗?”卡尔问道。
“我们将作为一个委员会对此做出决定，”切尼回答说。
“你怀疑(特朗普)违反了法律，他犯了刑事罪吗?”卡尔问切尼。(特朗普坚称自己没有做错任何事。)“这是我们将作为一个委员会一起做出的决定，”切尼在谈到将任何潜在的犯罪行为提交给司法部时说。
“毫无疑问，他犯了重罪和轻罪。我认为，毫无疑问，这是美国历史上最严重的违背总统就职誓言的行为。这是美国历史上任何一位总统最危险的行为，”她说。
"有可能会有刑事起诉吗?"卡尔问道。
“是的，”切尼说，并补充说，司法部“不必等待”小组作出移交，该委员会可以发出“不止一个刑事移交。”
损害特朗普不是听证会的“目标”
切尼可能已经成为她所在政党的领袖最直言不讳、最著名的反特朗普声音，引起了民主党的赞扬和许多保守派的嘲笑。去年，她告诉美国广播公司新闻，她将“尽我所能，确保”特朗普“永远不会再接近椭圆形办公室。”
"这些听证会让你更接近那个目标了吗--让他变得有害而不是一个可行的候选人?"卡尔在新的采访中问道。
“这不是听证会的目标，”她说。
切尼继续说:“对国家来说，确保他永远不再出现在椭圆形办公室附近是至关重要的。”
“听证会的目标是确保美国人民了解发生了什么;以帮助立法，立法的变化，我们可能需要做的，”她说。“我认为这也是我所了解到的情况，因为我们已经参与了这次调查，这让我不那么担心。”
切尼说:“毫无疑问:像唐纳德·特朗普这样危险的人绝对不能再出现在椭圆形办公室附近。”
随着初选的临近，切尼不打算输
切尼是2021年投票弹劾川普的10名众议院共和党人人之一，川普煽动了国会大厦骚乱。其中，四人没有竞选连任，南卡罗来纳州众议员汤姆·赖斯(Tom Rice)在5月的初选中被特朗普支持的对手击败。
切尼将在8月初面对特朗普支持的候选人哈里特·哈格曼。这位前总统在2020年怀俄明州赢得的选票比其他任何州都多。
“你最近说，这个国家现在正处于一场战斗中:我们必须战胜试图瓦解我们宪政共和国的前总统。如果你在怀俄明州的共和党初选中失利，这对这场战斗意味着什么?”卡尔问切尼。
“嗯，我不打算失去怀俄明州的共和党初选，”切尼说。
"对于这场更大的战役，你的胜利有多重要?"卡尔问道。
切尼说:“我认为这很重要，因为我将是怀俄明州人民所能拥有的最好的代表。”
“最重要的事情是保护国家不受唐纳德·特朗普的伤害。我认为这对我们美国人来说比什么都重要，这就是我在委员会的工作如此重要的原因。
“重要的是，不要只是刷一下过去，然后说，‘好吧，好吧，那是过去的事了’，但它表明了特朗普的这种信念的毒素，即他可以把自己置于宪法之上，把自己置于法律之上——无论我们是否成功地击败了这种信念。我认为让人们知道真相是非常重要的。这是有后果的，”切尼说。
切尼认为共和党在特朗普2024年的竞选中“无法生存”
切尼说，如果前总统再次竞选白宫并赢得2024年共和党提名，共和党“无法生存”。
“我认为他不可能成为党内提名人。我不认为该党会幸免于难，”切尼说。“我相信党，我相信党能成为什么样的人，相信党能代表什么。我不准备放弃它。”
她补充说:“我们这些相信共和党原则和理想的人有责任努力带领共和党回到它可以成为的样子，并拒绝和拒绝这么多的毒素和尖酸刻薄。”
“我认为同样重要的是要记住，数百万人、数百万共和党人被唐纳德·特朗普背叛了。对人们来说，认识和承认这一点真的很痛苦，”她说。
切尼说:“但这绝对是事实，他们已经被他背叛了，被‘弥天大谎’——指的是特朗普继续毫无根据地声称选举欺诈——“被他继续分裂我们的国家和分裂我们的党的所作所为所背叛，我认为我们必须拒绝这一点。”
她说，她还没有“做出决定”参加2024年的总统竞选。
“我显然非常关注我的连任。我非常关注1月6日的委员会，”她说，公众听证会预计将于本月晚些时候恢复。“我非常专注于我的义务，做好我现在的工作。我会在24年做出决定。"
“但我更多地从一个美国人的角度，而不是从竞选公职的角度来考虑这个问题——作为一个现在受到公众信任的人——我如何确保我尽我所能做正确的事情，做我认为对国家有益的事情，并保护我们的宪法?”
Not prosecuting Trump for Jan. 6 would fuel a 'much graver threat,' Liz Cheney says
The Justice Department should not avoid prosecuting Donald Trump in relation to the Jan. 6 Capitol attack if a prosecution is warranted, Rep. Liz Cheney said in an interview with ABC News' "This Week" co-anchor Jonathan Karl.
While bringing charges against the former president -- who may challenge President Joe Biden in 2024 -- would be unprecedented and "difficult" for the country, not doing so would support a "much graver constitutional threat," Cheney said Wednesday in an interview at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library that aired Sunday on "This Week."
"Are you worried about what that means for the country, to [see] a former president prosecuted? A former president who was a likely candidate; who may in fact be running for president against Biden?" Karl asked Cheney.
"I think it's a much graver constitutional threat if a president can engage in these kinds of activities, and the majority of the president's party looks away; or we as a country decide we're not actually going to take our constitutional obligations seriously," Cheney said. "I think that's a much, a much more serious threat."
"I really believe we have to make these decisions, as difficult as it is, apart from politics. We really have to think about these from the perspective of: What does it mean for the country?" she said.
'Absolutely confident' in Hutchinson's testimony
The Wyoming Republican told Karl she was "absolutely confident" in Cassidy Hutchinson's startling testimony last week during a surprise hearing by the House's Jan. 6 committee, which Cheney vice-chairs.
"She's an incredibly brave young woman," Cheney said of Hutchinson.
On Tuesday, the former aide to Trump's White House chief of staff Mark Meadows testified that she was told Trump was verbally aggressive with Secret Service agents and lunged for the steering wheel of his vehicle after learning he was not going to the Capitol after his rally on Jan. 6, 2021.
Hutchinson said Tony Ornato, a Secret Service agent and Trump deputy chief of staff, told her as much not long after the incident that same day. Hutchinson's account has drawn significant attention and push-back from Trump.
"What Ms. Hutchinson testified to was a conversation that she was part of with Mr. Ornato and which Mr. Engel [a Secret Service agent] was present, where they detailed what happened in the limousine," Cheney said.
"Do you have any evidence other than Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony to corroborate what she said happened in that presidential motorcade?" Karl asked Cheney.
"The committee has significant evidence about a whole range of issues, including the president's intense anger," Cheney responded.
"I think you will continue to see in the coming days and weeks additional detail about the president's activities and behavior on that day," Cheney added.
In a statement to ABC News, the Secret Service said agents were prepared to give sworn testimony to the panel. A source close to the Secret Service did not dispute to ABC News that Trump was angry with agents in the car but said he did not reach for the wheel or lunge at Robert Engel, the lead agent on his detail.
Hutchinson also claimed that Trump knew his supporters were armed on Jan. 6 ahead of a march on the Capitol.
Trump on Tuesday worked to dismiss and downplay Hutchinson's testimony, posting on social media that "I hardly know who this person ... is, other than I heard very negative things about her (a total phony and 'leaker')."
"She is bad news!" he added.
Speaking with Karl, Cheney said the House committee "is not going to stand by and watch her [Hutchinson's] character be assassinated by anonymous sources and by men who are claiming executive privilege. And so we look forward very much to additional testimony under oath on a whole range of issues."
Criminal referral over witness tampering?
Cheney said during last week's hearing that some witnesses had told investigators Trump aides attempted to influence their testimony before the panel. Hutchinson was among those to receive messages about protecting the former president, sources later told ABC News.
"Witness tampering is a crime. Are you making a criminal referral to DOJ on this?" Karl asked.
"We'll make a decision as a committee about that," Cheney replied.
"Do you have any doubt that [Trump] broke the law and that he is guilty of criminal violations?" Karl asked Cheney. (Trump insists he did nothing wrong.)"It's a decision that we'll make together as a committee," Cheney said of referring any potential criminal conduct to the Justice Department.
"There's no question that he engaged in high crimes and misdemeanors. I think there's no question that it's the most serious betrayal of his oath of office of any president in the history of the nation. It's the most dangerous behavior of any president in the history of the nation," she said.
"It's possible there will be a criminal referral?" Karl asked.
"Yes," Cheney said, adding that the Justice Department "doesn't have to wait" for the panel to make a referral and that the committee could issue "more than one criminal referral."
Damaging Trump 'not the goal' of hearings
Cheney has emerged as perhaps her party's most vocal and most famous anti-Trump voice, drawing praise from Democrats and derision from many conservatives. Last year, she told ABC News that she would "do everything that I can to make sure" Trump "never gets anywhere close to the Oval Office again."
"Have these hearings gotten you closer to that goal -- making him toxic and not a viable candidate?" Karl asked in the new interview.
"That's not the goal of the hearings," she said.
"It's crucial for the country to make sure that he's never anywhere near the Oval Office again," Cheney continued.
"The goal of the hearings is to make sure that the American people understand what happened; to help inform legislation, legislative changes that we might need to make," she said. "I think it's also the case that there's not a single thing that I have learned, as we have been involved in this investigation, that has made me less concerned."
"There's no question: A man as dangerous as Donald Trump can absolutely never be anywhere near the Oval Office ever again," Cheney said.
With looming primary, Cheney doesn't 'intend to lose'
Cheney was one of 10 House Republicans to vote to impeach Trump in 2021 for inciting the Capitol riot. Of that group, four are not running for reelection and Rep. Tom Rice of South Carolina was defeated in his May primary by a Trump-endorsed opponent.
Cheney will face Trump-backed candidate Harriet Hageman in early August. The former president won a greater share of the vote in Wyoming in 2020 than in any other state.
"You said recently the country is now in a battle: We must win against the former president trying to unravel our constitutional republic. What will it mean for that battle if you lose the Republican primary in Wyoming?" Karl asked Cheney.
"Well, I don't intend to lose the Republican primary in Wyoming," Cheney said.
"How important is it that you win, for that larger battle?" Karl asked.
"I think it's important, because I will be the best representative that people of Wyoming can have," Cheney said.
"The single most important thing is protecting the nation from Donald Trump. And I think that that matters to us as Americans more than anything else, and that's why my work on the committee is so important," she said.
"It's so important to not just brush this past and say, 'Okay, well, that's in the past,' but it informs whether this sort of toxin of Trump's belief that he can put himself above the Constitution and put himself above the law -- whether or not we successfully defeat that. And I think it's very important that people know the truth. And that there are consequences," Cheney said.
Cheney thinks GOP 'can't survive' a Trump 2024 bid
Cheney said the Republican Party "can't survive" if the former president runs for the White House again and wins the GOP nomination for 2024.
"I think that he can't be the party nominee. And I don't think the party would survive that," Cheney said. "I believe in the party, and I believe in what the party can be and what the party can stand for. And I'm not ready to give that up."
"Those of us who believe in Republican principles and ideals have a responsibility to try to lead the party back to what it can be, and to reject, and to reject so much of the toxin and the vitriol," she added.
"I think it's important also to remember that millions of people, millions of Republicans have been betrayed by Donald Trump. And that is a really painful thing for people to recognize and to admit," she said.
"But it's absolutely the case and they've been betrayed by him, by the 'big lie" -- referring to Trump's continued baseless claims of election fraud -- "and by what he continues to do and say to tear apart our country and tear apart our party, and I think we have to reject that," Cheney said.
She said she has not "made a decision" about running for president in 2024.
"I'm obviously very focused on my reelection. I'm very focused on the Jan. 6 committee," she said, with public hearings expected to resume later this month. "I'm very focused on my obligations to do the job that I have now. And I'll make a decision about '24 down the road."
"But I think about it less in terms of a decision about running for office and more in terms of as an American -- and as somebody who's in a position of public trust now -- how do I make sure that I'm doing everything I can to do the right thing, to do what I know is right for the country, and to protect our Constitution?"
